On 8/20/07, MJ Ray <..hidden..> wrote:
Christopher Murtagh <..hidden..> wrote: [...]
> Sure, but I don't really see the much of an advantage in our case to change
> licenses (to v3 or LGPL). At the moment, I don't see the current license
> causing any problems or confusion with anyone. Changing licenses makes people
> leery though. [...]
Part of the reason it makes people leery is that often core developers
start frothing about "RMS kool-aid" and other irrational reasoning.
One of the problems that projects inherently encounter is that the FSF is a political organization with political aims. Their licenses support their political goals at the times that they are approved. Like all political organizations, there are party-line followers and those who do have possibly deep disagreemnts with the political means and/or ends of the organization. In part because things are generally framed in absolutist terms by at least one side of the organization, this leads to heated political arguments when ever related topics come up.
At the same time, projects like this are lagely non-political. I say "largely" because there are still political elements in the desires of the contributors, the community, etc. even though these may be closely tied with business and economic goals. My own view is that, whatever disagreements occur in the community, I don't see anyone yet who I would suggest is simply a party-line FSF member. Furthermore, I think that the discussions of "drinking the kool aid" were simply meant by Josh to indicate that he was not such a person. I have yet to see any of these phrases used as ad hominems on this list yet and if they were, then I would be more inclined to agree.
Seeing such things from developers of a finance system doesn't give
many people warm fuzzies, and least of all, any non-core developers
who are promoting it "out there".
I hope the above discussion helps put your mind more at ease as well as everyone else's.
I get spooked by talk of odd
licences like OSL and wonder whether I'm going to be migrating people
off of Ledger-SMB almost as soon as they've migrated onto it (because
I don't remember which of Lawrence Rosen's licences is OSL and whether
it has problems and I don't want to rereview it unless I must.
There are things I like about the OSL but I this project would move to an unmodified OSL over my resignation. Same with the AGPL. In both cases, the licenses require the dissemination of source over the network by anyone who offers the services of the software to the public. There are a number of reasons why this would be bad for our project. (The OSL puts use restrictions on the software while the AGPL forces the project to be more political.)
In fact, I don't care what the OSI says, I don't consider the OSL to be either Free or Open Source because it places some restrictions on mere use of the software. I think we want to stay away from such restrictions. Is there any reason that anyone can give me to reconsider?
I think that Josh D is demonstrably wrong when he says that the OSL is sort of like the GPL without the rhetoric. They are, in fact, extremely different in both intent and implementation and while the OSL solves some problems with the GPL, it is in many respects a more extreme license.
I want
to hack, not sift legalities.)
Unfortunately, administration of an open source project doesn't give me that luxury. In fact, I think that it means that we as a community need to do what we can to reduce the amount of legal sifting required (the main reason for my license compatibility post earlier today).
I also think that the community at large deserves full input on licensing discussions. If you don't want to participate that is your right too, but you deserve to be given the opportunity to do so.
In addition to that, licensing is deeply unfun and a good thing to do
OnceAndOnceOnly until there's a compelling reason to change.
We didn't choose the license initially. We forked a GPL v2+ program and hence have not actually looked at and addressed what the licensing means to this project. You are right-- we should do this once and once only. And now is an OK time to actually discuss the matters as a way to shape the way forward.
I personally hope we can stay with the GPL v2 forever. I just happen to be pessimistic and think that it may not be practical. See below.
I don't
think the mere addition of GPLv3 to the licence proliferation is a
compelling reason. Maybe if something related changes to GPLv3, or
something that likes v3 but not v2, it will, but let's wait and see.
What I want to avoid is getting trapped into a license change which may not be in the best interest of the community simply because we are now dependant on libraries whose licenses change. I think at the same time, we can only wait and see because nothing we do really avoids the problem. The only option we might have would be to switch to a license like the BSD license, and that may not fit with the general spirit of the community (that is a radical change which would certainly generate hard feelings).
My point is that we are left with no good options. We want this to be Free/Open Source Software by everyone's standards and the GPL v3 makes that harder. I am right that Debian considers the GPL v3 to be a license whose use allows but does not ensure that the software meets the DFSG? Wouldn't the GPL v3 make our job in complying with these guidelines harder because we would have to review optional terms of all dependencies under the GPL v3? Is that a good use of core time? There are thus compelling reasons *not* to upgrade the license. I just don't want to be forced to do so.
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
Hope that explains,
--
MJ Ray - see/vidu
http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Experienced webmaster-developers for hire http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
Also: statistician, sysadmin, online shop builder, workers co-op.
Writing on koha, debian, sat TV, Kewstoke http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
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