Re: LedgerSMB 1.5.6 released

[ledger-smb-users <..hidden..>]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:11:31 +0200
Chris Travers <..hidden..> wrote:

> Hi Ario
> 
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 5:12 PM, ledger-smb-users <
> ..hidden..> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> 
> I have been thinking about your complaint above and this email a
> bit.  I would guess that previously
> that the problems you had were the result of difficulties using our
> web interface.  I think most people
> on this list understand and appreciate that the web interface
> generally can be improved and that
> it is and needs to be a priority.

Please understand me well. I'm not complaining (anymore :).

At the time it happened I was quite irritated by the event,
but later understood that my decision to look for another
way was also pushed by the facts that
1. I don't need the full bucket of features LSMB offers,
2. Installing of and keeping up with upgrades wasn't funny,
3. Re-installing on anything else than debian was a torture,
4. Entering records was way too slow to my likings, but I didn't
   know how to do it otherwise.
It's that Erik asked about it that I mentioned all this (again).
I highly appreciate the efforts you all have put in developing
LSMB and giving it away for free, and for the way you (and the
beancounter.com website) have taught me how to do accounting.

> > regarding 'blazingly fast', I'm still trying to set it up.
> > In essence I'll be trying to abuse the Memento Database UI's
> > template generating ability in that after reverse engineering
> > the format used by it, it could become possible to generate
> > one oneself.
> >
> > The idea is to use the 'Radio Button' feature extensively,
> > rather than the concept of drop-down lists to select entries
> > for a field.
> >
> 
> Ok so one of the things i have been working on lately has been a web
> service wrapper around LedgerSMB.  This is needed so we can write the
> user interface separately from the state logic.  As you have no doubt
> discovered, a command line, a desktop app, and a mobile app have
> differences in how they need to work and we need a better separation
> of concerns to allow better mobile interfaces.
> 
> >
> > The table of accounts is in fact a structured list, which can
> > be translated into a general tree. From that tree, one can
> > generate a template for Radio Buttons which would mostly
> > result in a sequence of selections to go through with one's
> > thumb (on a smartphone).
> >
> > Let me visualise this highly conceptual blabber a bit:
> >
> > Assume the following accounts:
> >
> > assets
> > assets:banks
> > assets:banks:Citi
> > assets:banks:Citi:savings
> > assets:banks:Citi:checking
> > assets:banks:Citi:ATM
> > assets:banks:AIG
> > assets:banks:AIG:savings
> > assets:banks:AIG:checking
> > assets:cash
> > assets:cash:me
> > assets:cash:me:wallet
> > assets:cash:me:wallet:USD
> > assets:cash:me:wallet:EUR
> > assets:cash:wife
> > assets:cash:wife:wallet
> > expenses
> > income
> > liabilities
> >
> > etc.
> >
> > Then, when entering an account to record a transaction in the field,
> > your smarphone presents you a set of buttons to touch:
> >
> > .assets  .expenses  .income  .liabilities
> >
> > Assume you touch .assets with your thumb.
> > You'll then be presented the following:
> >
> > .banks   .cash
> >
> > (If you had touched   .expenses  you'd seen something else.)
> > Assume you touch .cash, you'll see
> >
> > .me   .wife    and choose:   .me
> >
> > Etcetera. For .expenses and all the rest you'll be presented
> > the relevant buttons for those choices and the following choices
> > you'll make.
> >
> > I think that this way your accounts can be 'thumbed in' quite fast
> > withouth the trouble of scrolling through an extensive drop-down
> > list or moving around a keyboard.
> > Of course, if there's any new account you would have to enter that
> > completely.
> >
> 
> Ok so basically what you are doing is effectively navigating down the
> tree of headings to the account using touches.  Yeah, I could see
> that as a useful way to go on mobile apps.  Obviously it would be a
> mess on a desktop web interface and make the interface frustrating
> and slow there.  But that's exactly what the focus on getting to a
> web services-oriented framework ought to allow us to do.

Exactly, to do this with a mouse on a desktop would be quite 
cumbersome, typing could be much faster, scrolling a drop-down
list too. But on a smartphone there is no mouse, typing is a
drag, but thumbing through a limited choice of buttons is very
fast.

> > In the same manner, the products that you buy can be entered.
> > Let's say you do some groceries, they can be structured as well:
> >
> > .Delhaize   .Carrefour   .AH   .Ikea
> >
> > Touch .Carrefour:
> >
> > .hardware   .food   .clothes  (touch food)
> >
> > .vegetables   .fruit   .starch-based   .spices   .gels (touch gels)
> >
> > .jam   .chutney   .preserve   .sambal... no, sambal is spices
> > (touch jam)
> >
> 
> Nice.  Sambal. Indonesian/Malaysian food :-D.
> 
> But that reminds me of why partsgroups need to be hierarchical too.

Yes, luckily the parts groups that *I* am using were that already.

> > etc.
> > up to the packing and units:
> >
> > .box   .bottle   .sachet  (I know, you don't have this for beer)
> >
> > (Grolsch beer): touch bottle
> >
> > .300 ml    .500 ml    .1 l
> >
> > No more typing, no more scrolling.
> >
> > All this information can be obtained from previous purchases,
> > or entered as they are encountered for the first time.
> > The price from a previous 'encounter' can also be presented,
> > or re-entered if changed. The only thing you need the keyboard
> > then for is to type in the number of items bought, which will
> > probably default to 1 (or 12 in the case of beer :).
> >
> 
> Interestingly it seems like we are moving in the direction of being
> able to support the development of such interfaces.  I don't know
> what they will look like yet so I would be interested in a
> demonstration video when you get this together if you can.

I was indeed thinking of just that, but first I'd have to get it 
to work and find a screen recorder for my Jolla phone (which runs
Sailfish--which 'supports' Android in a way).

> > The nice thing about the Memento Database buttons is that they
> > can be made dependable on previously entered fields, so only
> > buttons that make sense are shown to choose from.
> >
> > After a day or so, the whole table can be exported and
> > converted into the format readable by ledger.
> >
> > I had planned to work on this the previous months when
> > something more urgent came up, but with some luck within
> > some time I could pick up where I left soon.
> >
> >
> > One other thing that put me off about LSMB was the time lost
> > for inputting data. Oh, and also the difficulties installing
> > it on other platforms than the primary supported ones, and as
> > a result the difficulties with the frequent upgrades which
> > required additional work. That's why I was excited to see
> > there's now a Docker container available.
> >
> 
> Great.  Hope the docker image is helpful for you :-)

Sorry, I just was excited, although I don't use LSMB anymore.

best regards,

ario


> 
> >
> > regards
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:26:49 +0200
> > Erik Huelsmann <..hidden..> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 2:54 AM, ledger-smb-users <
> > > ..hidden..> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:20:50 +0200
> > > > Erik Huelsmann <..hidden..> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Will you be using Docker to run LedgerSMB?
> > > >
> > > > No I won't: I don't run LedgerSMB anymore.
> > > >
> > > > The 'trust breaking event' was some hundreds (or more) of
> > > > transactions mishandled because LSMB automatically marked
> > > > them for processing and 'assumed' my 'OK' when I tried to
> > > > leave that page, without any warning.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes. I'm aware of that. Your reaction triggered me to think you
> > > were going to use it again as you were enthousiastic about the new
> > > possibility for installation.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I would have had to delve deep into the caves of
> > > > PostgresQL to try to fix that, and because also the
> > > > inputting (lots of clicking, dropping down and typing) of
> > > > transactions makes the process too slow to my liking.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I found ledger-cli which stores everything in human-readable
> > > > text files and it has enough features for me.
> > > >
> > > > And I found a rather quick way to input transactions on a
> > > > smartphone and am working now on a 'blazingly fast' way to
> > > > improve the speed (to reduce valuable time wasted on inputting).
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think every user of LedgerSMB would be tremendously interested
> > > in having entry be "blazingly fast". Could you provide a bit more
> > > detail on how you achieve the fast entry? Maybe the entry methods
> > > in LedgerSMB can be adaped to allow it?
> > >
> > >
> > > > There is also no interaction with taxing departments that have
> > > > to be lulled into believing that once a transaction is
> > > > registered it can not be altered anymore. ;)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Assuming you have a company, don't you have to file taxes? If you
> > > don't have a company, I'm very interested to learn why you keep
> > > books at all.
> > >
> > >
> > > > My interest in following this list comes from the fact that I
> > > > learned accounting through LSMB, and am secretly hoping that
> > > > one day I read an announcement that it has
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 1. become 'blazingly fast' to input transactions as they are
> > > > performed during the day, i.e.: 'on the fly',
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2. and therefore also works on smartphones.
> > > >
> > >
> > > So far I think this is a matter of process, not of tooling. Is
> > > there currently anything that's preventing you from doing this? I
> > > have actually used LedgerSMB on a tablet; I'm thinking the small
> > > screen of a phone will probably inhibit productive use of the UI
> > > in general (although I can imagine specific use-cases where a
> > > dumbed-down UI would work pretty well with mobile applications --
> > > shipping and receiving comes to mind).
> > >
> > > Again, I'm very interested to learn how you're solving the data
> > > entry problem on your phone at this point; hoping there's
> > > something to be learned for LedgerSMB.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> 
> 
> 


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