Re: Ledger-smb-users Digest, Vol 94, Issue 5

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 AM, <..hidden..> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. What can you do with a disk image? (Pongr?cz Istv?n)
2. Re: install sickness (Erik Huelsmann)
3. Re: install sickness (o1bigtenor)

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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:08:35 +0200
From: Pongr?cz Istv?n <..hidden..>
Subject: [Ledger-smb-users] What can you do with a disk image?
To: "Ledger-smb-users lists.sourceforge.net"
<..hidden..>
Message-ID: <..hidden..>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi,

Nowadays there are a several virtualization techniques on the market, lot of them are free. I limit the question to the "full" virtualization: virtualbox, kvm, microsoft version (whatever they called), xen (maybe).

I would like to know, what can you do with a simple disk image, which holds a complete 32 bit system?

Are you able to convert to your preferred format? (vmdk, vdi, raw, qcow2 etc.)

Are you able to create a 32 bit virtual machine, with 1GB RAM and 1 LAN port (dhcp will be used), VESA compatible VGA and import the virtual disk image?

Are you able to adjust the guest system to fulfill your virtualization? (kernel for virtual machines, guest packages like in virtualbox etc.)

Bye,

Istv?n

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:43:00 +0200
From: Erik Huelsmann <..hidden..>
Subject: Re: [Ledger-smb-users] install sickness
To: ..hidden..
Message-ID:
<..hidden..>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Darald,

>> If one have a recent (strong) workstation/laptop, it is easy to install
>> the recommended distribution and get ledgersmb working.
>>
>
> Easy to install - - - - hmmmmmmmm - - - - 3 year old instruction list as
> the most up to date - - - - hmmmmmmmmmmmm - - - - working system - - - -
> not at all.
>

> Somehow I will disagree that LedgerSMB is easy to install. If you have
> done it a number of times - - - it may be. As a computer user installation
> requires the services of a specialist and that defeats the purpose of using
> OSS.
>

On earlier occasions I kept quiet, because I didn't feel my contribution on
the subject would be constructive or even positive. However, this time I
can't suppress the urge to respond.

The age of documentation doesn't really matter if there's no release
requiring different instructions. Apparantly, others worked off those
instructions just fine or knew how to get it installed with some extra
information from the users list. Additionally, there is a significant and
well supported network of people who offer professional services, including
installation services for very reasonable fees. Some may even charge less
than the cost of a copy of proprietary systems on the market (e.g.
Quickbooks Pro).

If you really think (F)OSS software can be managed without specialist
knowledge, you're wrong. Some of the most complex software is developed as
OSS. LedgerSMB, being an ERP (not just an accounting system), is among
those complex systems. As Istvan pointed out, lots of things can go wrong
if a system isn't managed with the right knowledge. Just being able to set
up LedgerSMB isn't enough to safely manage your business's data.

Also, just bitching around on the users mailing list and then on the
development mailing list isn't going to improve the situation. Frankly,
from what I read, you were mainly showing your own incompetence to set up a
working Linux machine, failing to select the right software to install --
not even getting to the point where you could start to install LedgerSMB,
even though numerous people stepped up to help.

> As my business does not need multi-user capabilities I will change to
> lurker mode and check back in about 4 to 5 years from now and see if the
> installation complexities have been changed. I just can't afford to have my
> financial data held hostage by outside companies.
>

I'm affraid waiting 4 or 5 years won't help. Installation and especially
management of a LedgerSMB software install will get easier, but won't get
to the levels where it's end-user-level point-and-click install and
management -- the level that you seem to be looking for. The software is
simply too complex. If you want something point-and-click, I suggest you
try something else. Maybe osFinancials (
http://www.osfinancials.org/indexold.php/en/) can offer what you're looking
for. If osFinancials doesn't work for you, maybe GnuCash (
http://www.gnucash.org/) can. The latter is definitely more aimed at the
consumer level than LedgerSMB; a friend of mine uses the former.

I hope you do find what you're looking for somewhere. I really do. It won't
be here. I'm sorry.

--
Bye,

Erik.

http://efficito.com -- Hosted accounting and ERP.
Robust and Flexible. No vendor lock-in.
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 13:01:31 -0500
From: o1bigtenor <..hidden..>
Subject: Re: [Ledger-smb-users] install sickness
To: ..hidden..
Message-ID:
<CAPpdf5_0498Kk8Vdz=..hidden..>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 8:43 AM, Erik Huelsmann <..hidden..> wrote:

> Hi Darald,
>
>
>>> If one have a recent (strong) workstation/laptop, it is easy to install
>>> the recommended distribution and get ledgersmb working.
>>>
>>
>> Easy to install - - - - hmmmmmmmm - - - - 3 year old instruction list as
>> the most up to date - - - - hmmmmmmmmmmmm - - - - working system - - - -
>> not at all.
>>
>
>> Somehow I will disagree that LedgerSMB is easy to install. If you have
>> done it a number of times - - - it may be. As a computer user installation
>> requires the services of a specialist and that defeats the purpose of using
>> OSS.
>>
>
> On earlier occasions I kept quiet, because I didn't feel my contribution
> on the subject would be constructive or even positive. However, this time I
> can't suppress the urge to respond.
>
> The age of documentation doesn't really matter if there's no release
> requiring different instructions. Apparantly, others worked off those
> instructions just fine or knew how to get it installed with some extra
> information from the users list. Additionally, there is a significant and
> well supported network of people who offer professional services, including
> installation services for very reasonable fees. Some may even charge less
> than the cost of a copy of proprietary systems on the market (e.g.
> Quickbooks Pro).
>

I will apologize for assuming that it wouldn't take a specialist to install.

In the past I received assistance from a friend who at that time had over
20 years of perl experience and had work as a sys admin for a number of
years and he also couldn't get Ledger SMB to run. His comment was something
like incomplete instructions.

This last time I started the process of installing to a virtual machine
using assistance. That assistance dried up with no reasons given.
The second option was to hire someone on this list whose minimum charge was
$500. So $500 USD is considered a reasonable charge to install software.
Taking something like maybe an hour I was told.
Sorry for a small business $500 is NOT 'very reasonable fees'.

>
> If you really think (F)OSS software can be managed without specialist
> knowledge, you're wrong. Some of the most complex software is developed as
> OSS. LedgerSMB, being an ERP (not just an accounting system), is among
> those complex systems. As Istvan pointed out, lots of things can go wrong
> if a system isn't managed with the right knowledge. Just being able to set
> up LedgerSMB isn't enough to safely manage your business's data.
>

Sort of interesting that I have been able to run things for as long as I
have and not had issues.

>
> Also, just bitching around on the users mailing list and then on the
> development mailing list isn't going to improve the situation. Frankly,
> from what I read, you were mainly showing your own incompetence to set up a
> working Linux machine, failing to select the right software to install --
> not even getting to the point where you could start to install LedgerSMB,
> even though numerous people stepped up to help.
>

Again - - - I understand that this list does not want to be disturbed. I
get that loud and clear, REALLY LOUD AND CLEAR.

So - - - for the next dumb sap who tries to install - - - - what are they
to do?

Which tower are they to genuflect to so that they can get answers when the
install doesn't go as is indicated in the instructions?

Please indicate! (This won't be for me. I can't afford to use software like
this!)

Which numerous people stepped up to help?

What - - 2/3 people asked questions and I was told to be patient that there
would be answers - - - - sorry if that's your definition of assistance you
won't be assisting me at any time.

>
>
>
>> As my business does not need multi-user capabilities I will change to
>> lurker mode and check back in about 4 to 5 years from now and see if the
>> installation complexities have been changed. I just can't afford to have my
>> financial data held hostage by outside companies.
>>
>
> I'm affraid waiting 4 or 5 years won't help. Installation and especially
> management of a LedgerSMB software install will get easier, but won't get
> to the levels where it's end-user-level point-and-click install and
> management -- the level that you seem to be looking for. The software is
> simply too complex. If you want something point-and-click, I suggest you
> try something else. Maybe osFinancials (
> http://www.osfinancials.org/indexold.php/en/) can offer what you're
> looking for. If osFinancials doesn't work for you, maybe GnuCash (
> http://www.gnucash.org/) can. The latter is definitely more aimed at the
> consumer level than LedgerSMB; a friend of mine uses the former.
>
>
> I hope you do find what you're looking for somewhere. I really do. It
> won't be here. I'm sorry.
>

I will find something! Why - - - because there are millions of other people
out there like me and someone somewhere will someday realize that that
group would find something that isn't going to cost serious dollars to
install attractive and useful.

This elitist thinking is what's killing OSS - - - if you can't make the
directions clear enough and straightforward enough for a steady 12 year old
to understand well you don't have good business software.
If you think I'm a moron for stating it this bluntly observe very carefully
when you visit the next 20 offices you have occasion to attend. You will
find that in none of those (and likely the next 9979 out 10000) a person
who could sit down and install LedgerSMB using the instructions provided
today. Yet its likely that at least 5000 if not 7500 of those same offices
could use LedgerSMB.

So why are you as a group so dead set AGAINST making this easy to install?
(Absolutely not referring to point and click instead referring to an
instruction set that actually refers to something somewhat current (not
like the instructions for an install about 18 months old - - - any yes I
just checked!)) and work.

The attitude that is being displayed on this list is why Linux isn't taking
off in the first world. It won't either - - - because business people don't
have time for 'attitude' from IT departments nor individuals - - - we just
need to get the job done and when it doesn't get done that particular issue
is fixed.

Good luck in attracting users!!

Darald
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